Comments on: crypto-theology http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/ ...as in a mirror dimly Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:02:15 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: byron smith http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-23 byron smith Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:40:00 +0000 http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-23 Yes, I was thinking about Mark 4 again last week since I was leading a Bible study on those parables.<br/><br/>Have you read much Pannenberg? He is quite big on the eschatological vindication of Christ (with resurrection being, of course, the eschatological event <i>par excellence</i>). Yes, I was thinking about Mark 4 again last week since I was leading a Bible study on those parables.

Have you read much Pannenberg? He is quite big on the eschatological vindication of Christ (with resurrection being, of course, the eschatological event par excellence).

]]> By: matthew http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-18 matthew Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:49:00 +0000 http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-18 Hi Byron... Interesting that you mention Mark 4 - these parables have been really important to me as I've been mulling this stuff over, over the last couple of years. In fact, I think 1 Cor and Mark 4 share some interesting features: In both, Jesus is presented as the inaugurating a hidden kingdom, the glory of which will not be fully revealed until the end. In the meantime, disciples are not to become disheartened: Both 1 Cor and Mark 4 quote Isaiah to emphasise that the "world" is blind to what's really happening in Jesus. I do wonder if both Jesus and Paul are drawing on an OT/Jewish tradition, represented especially in prophetic/apocalyptic texts - in which present unimpressiveness is countered by a focus on God's hidden work, which will become manifest in the future.<br/><br/>In terms of Paul's initial blindness, I do wonder if it might have been "fundamental" in terms of "most important" - although perhaps that's overstating it: What I mean is that it must have been shocking to Paul that it was possible for Jesus to be Lord of all, without anyone noticing! Paul himself had been utterly religious, and had completely stumbled over it - he had to be blinded in order to finally see. Paul goes on in his letters, of course, to utilise the theme of blindness & sight quite significantly. Hi Byron… Interesting that you mention Mark 4 – these parables have been really important to me as I’ve been mulling this stuff over, over the last couple of years. In fact, I think 1 Cor and Mark 4 share some interesting features: In both, Jesus is presented as the inaugurating a hidden kingdom, the glory of which will not be fully revealed until the end. In the meantime, disciples are not to become disheartened: Both 1 Cor and Mark 4 quote Isaiah to emphasise that the “world” is blind to what’s really happening in Jesus. I do wonder if both Jesus and Paul are drawing on an OT/Jewish tradition, represented especially in prophetic/apocalyptic texts – in which present unimpressiveness is countered by a focus on God’s hidden work, which will become manifest in the future.

In terms of Paul’s initial blindness, I do wonder if it might have been “fundamental” in terms of “most important” – although perhaps that’s overstating it: What I mean is that it must have been shocking to Paul that it was possible for Jesus to be Lord of all, without anyone noticing! Paul himself had been utterly religious, and had completely stumbled over it – he had to be blinded in order to finally see. Paul goes on in his letters, of course, to utilise the theme of blindness & sight quite significantly.

]]> By: byron smith http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-15 byron smith Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:04:00 +0000 http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-15 When you say that blindness was Saul's "fundamental" experience of the risen Jesus, do you mean simply his original experience, or also his most important experience? When you say that blindness was Saul’s “fundamental” experience of the risen Jesus, do you mean simply his original experience, or also his most important experience?

]]> By: byron smith http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-14 byron smith Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:02:00 +0000 http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-14 Great questions. Is this the focus of your research? I began writing a research proposal along these lines a couple of years ago, but then changed my mind regarding my intended focus. Nonetheless, I'm still very interested in such questions.<br/><br/><i>He also said, "This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground. Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how. All by itself the soil produces grain—first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head. As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come." Again he said, "What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it? It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds on earth. Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds can perch in its shade."</i> (Mark 4.26-32 Great questions. Is this the focus of your research? I began writing a research proposal along these lines a couple of years ago, but then changed my mind regarding my intended focus. Nonetheless, I’m still very interested in such questions.

He also said, “This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground. Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how. All by itself the soil produces grain—first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head. As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come.” Again he said, “What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it? It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds on earth. Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds can perch in its shade.” (Mark 4.26-32

]]> By: matthew http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-11 matthew Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:51:00 +0000 http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-11 Thanks for this Craig - you're right about the Spirit being in a different league to word & sacrament, of course... and I can see that "indirect presence" is not the most ideal phrase. On the other hand, it is the Spirit who groans with us in our incompleteness, making us long to SEE Jesus face to face, a la 1 Cor 13: Paul corrects the "Spiritual" by reminding them, "now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known." <br/><br/>So I guess what I'm trying to approach with the awkward word "indirect" is the gnawing awareness (granted by the Spirit) that in an important sense we are not yet "with" the Lord. Thanks for this Craig – you’re right about the Spirit being in a different league to word & sacrament, of course… and I can see that “indirect presence” is not the most ideal phrase. On the other hand, it is the Spirit who groans with us in our incompleteness, making us long to SEE Jesus face to face, a la 1 Cor 13: Paul corrects the “Spiritual” by reminding them, “now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.”

So I guess what I’m trying to approach with the awkward word “indirect” is the gnawing awareness (granted by the Spirit) that in an important sense we are not yet “with” the Lord.

]]> By: Craig Bennett http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-9 Craig Bennett Thu, 27 Mar 2008 03:13:00 +0000 http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-9 G'day Matt.<br/><br/><i>indirect presence - via Spirit, Word, and Sacrament?</i><br/><br/>I'm not sure I like the use of "<i>indirect presence</i>" <br/><br/>I think this distracts us from the Trinitarian Godhead's purpose. The Spirits presence should be more tangible to and within us then what the physical Jesus would be in front of us. <br/><br/>I think the word and sacraments only become alive through the Spirit therefore I don't like how you seem to have placed equal importance to the word and sacraments to the Spirit! G’day Matt.

indirect presence – via Spirit, Word, and Sacrament?

I’m not sure I like the use of “indirect presence”

I think this distracts us from the Trinitarian Godhead’s purpose. The Spirits presence should be more tangible to and within us then what the physical Jesus would be in front of us.

I think the word and sacraments only become alive through the Spirit therefore I don’t like how you seem to have placed equal importance to the word and sacraments to the Spirit!

]]> By: Rory Shiner http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-2 Rory Shiner Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:21:00 +0000 http://cryptotheology.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/crypto-theology/#comment-2 Hi Matthew,<br/><br/>The good news is I have excellent, simple and compelling answers to all those questions. The bad news is that I haven't got time to record them here. <br/><br/>Nice to see you start up a blog. I'll look forward to following it. Don't become one of the statistics of people who start blogs and don't follow through.<br/><br/>Blessings,<br/><br/>Rory Hi Matthew,

The good news is I have excellent, simple and compelling answers to all those questions. The bad news is that I haven’t got time to record them here.

Nice to see you start up a blog. I’ll look forward to following it. Don’t become one of the statistics of people who start blogs and don’t follow through.

Blessings,

Rory

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