The recent shambles in the Gaza strip reminded me of two pictures that I took from the Palestinian side of the “Berlin wall” that Israel has constructed to divide off Palestinian territory:
“Give them justice; they will reward you with peace”
“I am not a terrorist”
RSS - Posts
Approximately 5% of the barrier is a wall- the rest is a fence.
The reason the wall was built in certain areas was to prevent snipers from firing on passing cars or pedestrians- a long and time honored Palestinian terrorist sport.
Perspective, you know?
“a long and time honored Palestinian terrorist sport” … you talking about perspective? pgh
Actually, that was sarcasm.
Sarcastic, but accurate.
By the way, as a matter of perspective, see this:
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2009/01/egyptian-cleric-justifies-holocaustairs.html
This is perfectly acceptable in some parts of the world- and broadcast on state controlled media.
I gathered that. Not accurate but perspective.
That isn’t relevant to Israel’s sealing of the borders of Gaza, or their ‘wall’ or Palestinian people generally. Free Palestine.
Eight. Clearly, Hamas, Jihad, et al, are capable of self governance.
I am astonished that you would remark that calls to genocide as not relevant to Israel’s security.
I am curious- do you share the same sentiments as the sheik?
Yes. Free Palestine from the American supported death-dealing powers of the Israeli State. Shame on Israel, and shame on us, for constantly blocking the road to peace.
“Eight”? “I am astonished that you would remark that calls to genocide as not relevant to Israel’s security.” Actually I made no such remark. My focus is your accusation against Palestinians. And of course not. But I echo Dan: Free Palestine from the American supported death-dealing powers of the Israeli State. Shame on Israel, and shame on America, for constantly blocking the road to peace.
The issues are complex – and surpass my understanding. But it does seem to me that the wall communicates something beyond mere self-protection – particularly when it is combined with long drawn out job-preventing detaining of Palestinians who want to cross its border.
It is, of course, hideous to attempt to justify the holocaust… but is it not also wrong to attempt to justify the deaths of so many Palestinian children in the recent conflict?
Well said, Matt – and it is also wrong to attempt to justify the deaths of many Palestinians *including* children…
Sorry, Stephen- the ‘Eight’ was a typo. Should have read ‘Right.’
Matthew-
You make it sound as if the targeting of children was deliberate. In fact, the use of children, hospitalized persons and women as human shields has been well documented- and admitted to bu Hamas.
The loss of any life is tragic and regrettable- certainly when children are made to pay the price. That said, it is Hamas, et al, who make sure children are kept in harms way, al in the name of promoting an ideology of hate.
Let’s be clear here- most of the ‘innocent victims’ in Gaza share the identical ideology espoused by the sheikh.
Further, let’s shed some moral clarity here.
The Palestinians receive more aid per capita tham from the world community than any other group, by far. This is about a lot more than money.
There is certainly much to criticize Israel with- but demanding that she stop defending herself from the declared genocidal intent of some of her adversaries is not one of those critiques. The Hamas leadership acknowledged they would not have started the confrontation had they known Israel would strike back.
There is no such thing as a disproportionate response to genocide.
Hamas and the Nazis came to power by way of the manipulation of the electoral process. Had we bombed bombed Berlin to eliminate the Nazi leadership, their calls for genocide and the elevation of the ‘master race’ would barely be remembered today.
And up to 50 million souls would not have perished.
The problem with this conflict is people’s “moral clarity” preventing any kind of sensible discussion. It was the “moral clarity” of Israel that caused the recent bombing, that has left 1312 Palestinians dead, 417 children & 108 women. 5340 injured, 4,000 buildings have been destroyed, 20,000 severely damaged, the major hospitals, mosques and schools leveled. Currently, 50,000 Gazans are homeless, 400,000 without running water and 2/3 of Gaza’s without electricity. Israel’s intention was clear, to cripple the Gaza strip, not that the Gazans had not already been blockaded, starved and prevented from moving. Both the Red Cross and the UN have not thought the term ‘war crime’ not inappropriate, in particular with regard to the bombing of a UN compound, a school and the shelling of a refugee camp. Israel has one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world and is recognised as having the greatest air force in existence, yet they seem incapable of not attacking places they are aware will be filled with civilians. This has nothing to do with human shields, and everything to do with creating a climate of intimidation and fear. The ‘moral clarity’ of Israel is that the Gazan’s are less than human, irriational, the whole slew of orientalist stereotypes. What is needed is less ‘moral clarity’ and more careful consideration of the facts on the ground, not limited to the removal of the kind of language that ho-hums about any “loss of any life is tragic and regrettable” and aims towards the compromises neccesary for a lasting peace, as Hamas offered in a recent statement through President Jimmy Carter.
The election of Hamas was recognised by international observers as being legtimate.
Your premise is absurd.
Hamas have themselves noted that they ‘miscalculated’ Israels’ response to their provocations. For you to say that “It was the “moral clarity” of Israel that caused the recent bombing..” either points to your own lack of understanding or a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the truth.l In either case, your credibility is severely compromised.
You also make no note of Hamas deliberately hiding using women and children as human shields or firing from school and hospital grounds and other populated areas. Newsweek too, made clear these realities.
Naturally, you do not mention the ‘moral clarity’ of the Palestinians and their call to genocide, as well as decades of Palestinian and Arab world racism, bigotry and hate- ideas you clearly have no problem with. Speaks volumes, you know?
Personally, I have no problem with your clear affinity for bigots, racists and purveyors of hate. I mean, it isn’t as if that hate is well camouflaged. Everyday, it is broadcast on state media, taught in schools and preached from religious pulpits, preached by state funded clerics. I wish you’d be more upfront about your clearly defined morality. After all, you are in a free country- you can be as bigoted and disingenuous as you like, with no fear of real repercussion.
As many Arab world liberals have repeated for years, the Palestinians are in a world of their own creation (of course, what do Arab liberals and reformers aren’t blessed with your moral clarity). They have made clear time and time again in public pronouncements, documents and videos that killing Jews takes precedence over the establishment of their own state.
Lastly, it is the Palestinians that have made Palestinian life less valuable. It is they who hide behind women and children. It is they who fire from schools and hospitals and it is they who turn mosques into munitions caches.
The Arab media have been all over Hamas for that behavior and have registered their revulsion in print and over the air. It seems even they have a moral clarity that you do not.
Like I said, that speaks volumes.
One more thing- Hitler came to power by way of a free vote as well. What does that prove?
As I noted earlier, “Had we bombed bombed Berlin to eliminate the Nazi leadership, their calls for genocide and the elevation of the ‘master race’ would barely be remembered today.
And up to 50 million souls would not have perished.”
I’ll correct that number to 44 million, about 6 million fewer- you know, the ‘right’ kind of victims.
The idea of Hamas hiding behind schools and hospitals and using Mosques as weapon caches is basically Israeli propaganda, that was prepared for the media offensive the government knew it would face when it began these actions – if you read the stories, they are generally sourced directly from the IDF. Even if I grant your point, which I do not, surely a better solution would be simply to not bomb the schools and hospitals and point out Hamas does this, which would surely make Israel look much better. It seems so backward to say “we knew there were children there, but we bombed anyway”.
You accuse me of aligning myself with “bigots, racists and purveyors of hate”, yet there are plenty ultra-Zionists in Israel whose description this could easily fit and whose repressive anti-arab policies within the state of Israel confirm. The description that “Everyday, it is broadcast on state media, taught in schools and preached from religious pulpits, preached by state funded clerics” could equally be levelled at numerous individuals in Israel, including those who sat on hilltops watching the air strikes, and many many commentators in the United States who are pro-Israel and rabidly anti-Muslim.
You implied “the manipulation of the electoral process” resulted in power for the Nazis as for Hamas and then back down from your position in the face of the facts. I wonder how strong the rest of your argument is.
What is your proposed solution? Seriously? How do you propose to end this violence? With more airstrikes, that even from your perspective you must see as the most effective recruiter than any amount of hate preached on TV? I am fairly sure that searching for your children in the rubble of your home tends not to make peace the first thing on your mind. Do you really think Israel can bomb its way to peace?
I am astonished at your remarks!
Videos, Arab world media and even, as Newsweek reported, all have conformed the use of human shields, schools, hospitals and mosques used a firing platforms as a reality.
Here’s a reality pill. What Palestinians really desire is a ‘Right to Exterminate Jews.’ It really is that simple.
Day in and day out, for decades, there has been one consistent Palestinian and Arab world message. Media, school curricula and pulpit preachers have all embraced the notion that Jews are subject to slaughter.
Here’s some more reality:
When nations that are that are led by or are under the influence of tyrants or dictators, attempt to justify their actions, we can rightly assume that justification is false. Tyrants and dictators do not make moral choices, because moral choices can only lead to the demise of the tyranny.
Anyone that comes to the defense of tyrannical regimes and their leaders, have themselves made a conscious choice to defend and stand by what is immoral. They themselves consciously adopt an immoral posture- and that includes anyone who supports a Palestinian Right To Exterminate Jews’.
You said about me that I “implied “the manipulation of the electoral process” resulted in power for the Nazis as for Hamas and then back down from your position in the face of the facts. To what facts are you referring? Where exactly am I in err?
Did not the Egyptians make the same point? Does not the PA say that very same thing? Is not Hamas been accused of vicious and violent atrocities against their own?
Besides that, why do you seem so reluctant to distance yourself from the racism, bigotry and hate the Hamas and others so openly embrace?
What is it about Israel that makes those things so tolerable to you?
Now, lets get down to it. As a matter of disclosure, I am a political behavioral analyst who specializes in predicting behavior. My areas of expertise are Eastern Europe and the Middle East.
I cannot help but notice a pattern in these exchanges. I respond to your remarks and you refuse to do the same- as if ‘pivot and attack’ were an acceptable and adult kind of intellectual behavior.
Before I answer your last question- “What is your proposed solution? Seriously? How do you propose to end this violence?” I would ask you to read the series of posts on my sidebar, under the banner “Middle East.”
I shall answer your question later on.
I will say this: While there is plenty to be critical of Israel, it always astonished me how many people would rather attack her right to defend herself from genocide (and we all know that is what Hamas is calling for) rather than criticize of what is the onerous burden Israel places on the Palestinians.
I don’t know as much about the issues involved as many others – and I agree that there is misunderstanding and fault on both sides… but I am convinced it is dangerously non-constructive to characterise the other as simplistic and unthinking: I found this comment disturbing:
“What Palestinians really desire is a ‘Right to Exterminate Jews.’ It really is that simple.”
When you caricature the other like this, making them out to be purely evil, you are not demonstrating any genuine interest in peace.
I do think there might have been an alternative to bombing the hell out of Berlin in the early twentieth century – I wonder what might have happened if, rather than being encouraged by those around him to caricature the Jews as irredeemably evil, Hitler might have actually gotten to know the complexities and realities of those he was opposing…
Exactly why is that a caricature? The Palestinians by way of Hamas have noted many times not only will they never accept Israel as a reality, they also make clear that their real struggle is with the Jews, whom they believe must be eradicated. Not only is that broadcast in media, taught in schools, often preached from the pulpit (‘We’ll finish what Hitler started’) and is one of the central tenets of the Hamas Charter.
I repeat- how exactly are my remarks a caricature?
As for the alternative to bombing the hell out of Berlin, that is exactly what happened. On top of ceding the Sudetenland to Germany, Chamberlain bent over backward to appease Hitler.
I’ll respond to all of this in full tomorrow.
Matthew- while I appreciate your feelings on the subject, perhaps we ought not predicate responses and policies on ‘feelings.’ The problems in the region will not be solved unless substantive issues are addressed and resolved.
To be clear, as I have noted many times, the problem is NOT inherently an Arab or Muslim problem. The source of the issue are the dysfunctional and broken regimes- they have poisoned the water for decades by using religion a tool to further their own agenda.
When nations that are that are led by or are under the influence of tyrants or dictators attempt to justify their actions, we can rightly assume that justification is false. Tyrants and dictators do not make moral choices, because moral choices can only lead to the demise of the tyranny.
Anyone that comes to the defense of tyrannical regimes and their leaders, have themselves made a conscious choice to defend and stand by what is immoral. They themselves consciously adopt an immoral posture.
We cannot address the real issues if we do not address the problem in its entirety. To pretend Arab world racism, bigotry and calls to genocide (deliberately imposed by dysfunctional Arab regimes) does not exist is to exacerbate and perpetuate the problem.
Wow Matt – you attracted a right fundie with this topic and got a record for comments! I’m not bothered to sift through the rhetoric though, especially when he calls me Stephen. That’s my ex husband’s name … Funny – he reminds me of Stephen too – except Stephen was an angry arrogant anarchist.
Last year I sat with a Palestinian man as we watched people come in and out of the church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. He bought me a cold drink and we chatted about our two little daughters of similar age. He told me about his love for his wife and his struggles to keep work. I asked him about how the Jews and Palestinians of the area get on – and his answer was sad but reasoned.
So why is your presentation a caricature? That’s why. I agree with you that we must be incensed by Hitler… but that means being incensed at characterising a whole people group as “simply” being extermination machines.
A comment from a visitor on an Al Jazeera website:
“the jews dont want peace cause US givin them money to kill palestinians”
As long as Palestinians caricature Jews as being simply interested in killing, and Jews caricature Palestinians as being simply interested in killing, we will have a major stumbling block to peace. Of course, there are many issues that have to be addressed in order to pursue peace – economic, political, etc etc… but one issue bound up with it all is an openness to the genuine complexity of the other.
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/01/on-gaza-occupations.html
http://occupationnottingham.wordpress.com/
if I was back in Nottingham now…
Have you read James Crossley’s Jesus in an Age of Terror yet Matt? I’m afraid that the anti Palestine (and anti Islam) rhetoric in the blogosphere reminds me of what James describes as “hideously emboldened Orientalism”.
I haven’t read the book… I’m intrigued by the phrase! The occupation nottingham thing is also very interesting… including support from Noam Chomsky!! I have to acknowledge that the comment on the website about general political apathy at nottingham is probably apt… somehow we just coast along without wanting to get involved with things…
Obviously not enough plain speaking free thinking antipodeans at Notts.
My apologies, Steph. Please find it in you left wing progressive heart to forgive my faux pas.
That said, I had high hopes for some substantive critique, as opposed to a rather dull ad hominim.
Matthew, you are absolutely correct- to paint an absolute an wholesale brush is of little productive value. In doing so, I am making a point: The fact remains that a majority Palestinians voted or Hamas and subsequent polls indicate that Hamas still enjoys broad support. This a reality that must be dealt with by all of us (a year or two ago ago Hamas leaders declared their intent to use chem/bio weapons when procured or developed).
The majority of Germans supported the Nazi Party as well- and extinguished opposition brutally (a lesson not lost on Hamas). Notwithstanding the German minority, we had to deal with the Nazi regime- that was western priority.
It is true that there are more than a few moderate Palestinians, but unless they are empowered, they too are victims of Hamas. We can support moderates (and certainly the Israelis have along track record in doing just that) but another unspoken tragic truth is that moderates are intimidated by Hamas and the fundamentalists, or worse. Witness the recent barbarity exhibited by Hamas against PA supporters in Gaza. It is believed the final number of casualit6ies will be in the hundreds. For Hamas, anyone who believes that a two state solution is reasonable, becomes a target.
What to do? I’ll answer that in a bit. I’m being hunted down by my telephone.
SC&A
You seem to be swaying all over the shop and I don’t really have much of an idea what your substansive position is.
1. According to you, did Hamas gain an electoral position legtimately? Intially say they gained power throught the “the manipulation of the electoral process” then you say “that a majority Palestinians voted or Hamas and subsequent polls indicate that Hamas still enjoys broad support”.
2. Then you say quite boldly “What Palestinians really desire is a ‘Right to Exterminate Jews.’ It really is that simple.” Then “to paint an absolute an wholesale brush is of little productive value”.
There is certainly much that is troubling about Hamas, the supression of internal political defense is of concern, and naturally, their attitude to homosexuality is repulsive (though likely not uncommon among Israelis also). However, constant reference to their Charter is unhelpful. Recently senior members of the organisation, in particular Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook have said that the problematic clauses in their charter are largely historical, it is almost twenty years old and times have changed. Hamas now stress the nationalist character of their movement. They have repeatedly said, even within the past few weeks in an interview with Al Jazeera, that they accept a peace process. With regard to hatred of Judaism, Ismail Haniyeh in an overwhelmingly hostile interview with the Washington post has said “We are not lovers of blood. We are not interested in a vicious cycle of violence. We are oppressed people with rights. If peace brings us our rights, then this is good.” and “We do not have any feelings of animosity toward Jews. We do not wish to throw them into the sea. All we seek is to be given our land back, not to harm anybody.” and in response to the question “Do you recognize Israel’s right to exist?”, “The answer is to let Israel say it will recognize a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders, release the prisoners and recognize the rights of the refugees to return to Israel. Hamas will have a position if this occurs”. In a further article, Marzook says that “Hamas welcomes dialogue”. As I previously noted they have offered a truce numerous times, but Israel won’t even consider talking to them, after all, it is Israel not Hamas that broke the recent ceasefire.
Now, Hamas is hardly as pathological as you imply, unless, and I am sure you will probably say this is the case, we cannot take them at their word.
I don’t think any constructive dialogue can occur here, so I am pretty sure I will stop posting.
Alex, you said, “1. According to you, did Hamas gain an electoral position legtimately? Intially say they gained power throught the “the manipulation of the electoral process” then you say “that a majority Palestinians voted or Hamas and subsequent polls indicate that Hamas still enjoys broad suppor”
Mt remarks are correct. Hamas won legislative elections. The PA governing authority was to retain Mahmoud Abbas as head of stare. Upon their election, Hamas declared that they, and not the Palestinian Authority were the legitimate representatives of the people. In other words, Hamas, et al, want t o declare the legislative branch of government over the executive branch. Given the nature of the PA government, that is about as close an approximation of the facts on the ground as I can get. That is why there is so much animus between the PA and Hamas.
You also said, “2. Then you say quite boldly “What Palestinians really desire is a ‘Right to Exterminate Jews.’ It really is that simple.” Then “to paint an absolute an wholesale brush is of little productive value”.
Quoting me out of context does not fortify your argument- it weakens it and makes you less credible.
What I also said in part was “In doing so, I am making a point: The fact remains that a majority Palestinians voted or Hamas and subsequent polls indicate that Hamas still enjoys broad support. This a reality that must be dealt with by all of us (a year or two ago ago Hamas leaders declared their intent to use chem/bio weapons when procured or developed).” The rest of my remarks are also germane.
As an aside, to compare Israeli to Palestinians with regards to homosexual rights and freedoms is absurd. Israel protection of gay rights goes a long way in explaining why so many gay Palestinians routinely receive permission to live in Israel proper. I could go on, but I realize you probably misspoke.
Now, if the Hamas Charter is ‘problematical’, why not change it? Think of the PR coup- “Hamas Recognizes Israel’s Right To Exist, Renounces Plans For Extermination Of Jews”.
Of course, that will never happen. What is said in English or oher European languages in front of the cameras is not what is said in their own language.
From The Lebanon Daily Star:
“Hamas said Friday that it would never recognize Israel and will not, as a movement, abide by previously reached Palestinian peace accords with Israel as urged by President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah. “We will never recognize Israel. There is nothing called Israel, neither in reality nor in the imagination,” Nizar Rayyan, a senior Hamas leader in Gaza, told the Reuters news agency…”
More:
“Hamas views the Arab-Israeli conflict as “a religious struggle between Islam and Judaism that can only be resolved by the destruction of the State of Israel.”
“…asserts that struggle (jihad) to wrest control of the land from Israel is a religious duty incumbent on every Muslim individually (fard `ain).”
“Hamas uses both political activities and violence to pursue its goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel and the secular Palestinian Authority…Hamas has also engaged in peaceful political activity, such as running candidates in West Bank Chamber of Commerce elections…”
I wrote before that
” …This highlights another reality. In Arab cultures, there is no real reward or recognition for loving the sanctity of life. Those who profess a desire for real peace, non violence, less corruption and less oppression are considered reformers.
…Repression, oppression, terror, genocide and hate flourish. Entire populations are groomed to know only hopelessness, and not hope. There are failed economies, failed civil infrastructures and failed educational infrastructures. A child born in the Arab world today has little hope of achieving success on his own. There is little in the way of opportunities or a way out if the bleakness. There is no bright future to look forward to.”
Therein lies the greatest tragedy- an entire population has been overrun by dysfunction, imposed by some of the most corrupt and broken regimes in modern history.
The Palestinians are victims- but not of Israel. They are the victims of their own corrupt leadership and regimes. They have been force fed with the idea that living side by side with Israel- and more importantly, the hated Jews, is intolerable.
As tragedies go, they don’t get much bigger than that.
Alex- I want to add the following to my previous remarks.
From the Hamas MArtyrs Oath:
“Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious…The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realised
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times…
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him…’
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with…
The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies…
Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. ‘May the cowards never sleep.”
Again, this is the tragedy that has been imposed upon the Palestinians. The reality is that even if a peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians were to be signed tomorrow, it would decades for relations to normalize.
Didn’t I just say that endless deference to the Hamas charter was not a very valid argumentative tactic? I’m sure I could extract some rather choice statements from the founding documents of Zionism. What matters is what the leadership is saying now. Besides, Hamas ceased these martyrdom operations a couple of years ago. You have again missed my point. I’ll lay it out for you again.
1. “Hamas Recognizes Israel’s Right To Exist, Renounces Plans For Extermination Of Jews” – well they have already said they don’t seek the extermination of Jews, quite clearly, a number of times, more on the recognition of Israel in a second. As for PR coups how about “Israel Declare Permanent Ceasefire, give aid to the Gaza strip and begin all party peace talks”.
2. ““What Palestinians really desire is a ‘Right to Exterminate Jews.’ It really is that simple.” How am I quoting this out of context? It’s pretty much a context unto itself. The Palestinians have a real desire than that is to kill Jews. This is your belief on the matter. “In Arab cultures, there is no real reward or recognition for loving the sanctity of life.” – how can this be any better than claiming that all Jews are x and y and deserve death? Your rhetoric is the mirror of the quotations you decry.
3. With regard to quotation you give about the recognition of the state of Israel. The reason you think Hamas won’t accept the state of Israel, and the way its spun in the West is that this means “we want to kill all the Jews in the state of Israel”. However, the reason they continue to hold this line is that to recognise the state of Israel would be to acknowledge the status quo too much, to say the situation as it exists is satisfactory. As one of their leaders pointed out which state of Israel do you want them to recognise? Surely not the one currently existing, which prevents Palestinians free movement? The peace deal they have offered, which I have mentioned many times, has implicit recognition of the state and a lengthy and likely permanent truce. It has offered this a few days ago.
The pathological attachment to “recognise the state of Israel or nothing” allows Israel just to do whatever it likes and never move peace process forward. Just take a look at the way things happened in Ireland, eventually someone in Israel will have the courage to realise that by insisting on this they will never move anywhere.
This is very boring, so I won’t be posting any more.
“Didn’t I just say that endless deference to the Hamas charter was not a very valid argumentative tactic?”
Let me put it to you this way:
I doubt you would be so enthusiastically embrace the Klan- because in effect, that is exactly what you are doing. In embracing Hamas by ignoring what they say they stand for, you have made a deliberate choice to embrace the racism embodied by Hamas. Do you also embrace David Duke, just because he says isn’t a racist? Do you find his stated beliefs and the beliefs of the organizations he is a part of, perfectly acceptable just because he says he is not a racist or bigot? Their words are irrelevant- it is their actions that matter. That you so definitively state that Hamas is not a pathological as I make them out to be only highlights your own broken value system.
You remind me of the fellow who says, ‘The Klan wasn’t so bad…’
Unless and until the Hamas- and for that matter, most of Hamas says is irreverent. If Hamas were what you say they are, they would not preach messages of hate in their media. If Hamas were what you say they are, they would not enshrine hare in their school curricula and if Hamas were who you say they are, there would be no religious instruction.
lastly, you are again being deceptive. You allude to remarks I made, out of context. What that means is that if you want to quote me of convey my posuition, you really ought not to selectively choose words to falsely state my position.
What I said in was as follows:
“What Palestinians really desire is a ‘Right to Exterminate Jews.’ It really is that simple.” I then went on to say that “..I am making a point: The fact remains that a majority Palestinians voted or Hamas and subsequent polls indicate that Hamas still enjoys broad support. This a reality that must be dealt with by all of us (a year or two ago ago Hamas leaders declared their intent to use chem/bio weapons when procured or developed).”
The rest of my remarks are also germane.
I noted that “The majority of Germans supported the Nazi Party as well- and extinguished opposition brutally (a lesson not lost on Hamas). Notwithstanding the German minority, we had to deal with the Nazi regime- that was western priority.
It is true that there are more than a few moderate Palestinians, but unless they are empowered, they too are victims of Hamas. We can support moderates (and certainly the Israelis have along track record in doing just that) but another unspoken tragic truth is that moderates are intimidated by Hamas and the fundamentalists, or worse. Witness the recent barbarity exhibited by Hamas against PA supporters in Gaza. It is believed the final number of casualit6ies will be in the hundreds. For Hamas, anyone who believes that a two state solution is reasonable, becomes a target.”
Incredibly, you ask, “Which State of Israel do you want them (Hamas) to accept?” I think Hamas ought to recognize the State of Israel the entire civilized world recognizes.How about you?
You do realize that President Obama is more in line with my realities than your fantasies, right?
I’m very bored of the echo chamber of your endlessly self-referential statements. I’ve have tried to explain why Hamas is not an intrinsically racist organisation, and their recent statements show this, but you aren’t listening. You are basically committing rather basic fallacy of composition with regard to Hamas (and likely the whole of the Arab world). There is no point talking past each other any more.
The fact is simple, and it must be accepted by your position as well as my own, Hamas will neccesarily be part of any future solution to the problems of the Middle East. This is as part of President Obama’s position as any other.
Hamas is not intrinsically racist, bigoted and does not call for genocide?
On what planet do you live?
Why is it even Obama has made clear he won’t deal directly with Hamas?
From WPR today:Rumors that Obama planned to hold direct talks with Hamas surfaced almost a year ago during the campaign. Obama vehemently denied the speculation. In fact, he was sharply critical of former president Carter when he met with Hamas leaders in Damascus in May. “We must not negotiate with a terrorist group intent on Israel’s destruction,” the candidate said.
Speculation returned with the revelation that one of his advisers, Robert Malley, had sat down with Hamas leaders. The Obama campaign promptly severed all ties with Malley and forcefully rejected suggestions that he would talk to Hamas as president, restating his position that Hamas is “a terrorist organization [and] we should not negotiate with them unless they recognize Israel and renounce violence.”
That, by the way, was the position of both the Bush administration and the so-called Quartet — the U.S., European Union, Russia and United Nations — with regard to Hamas…”
Whether or not Hamas is part of the solution is up to Hamas. They will have to renounce violence- and the racist and bigoted calls to genocide and they will have to accept Israel’s right to exist.
They alone will determine their own destiny and relevance.
At least tell the truth.
Steph,
Quick point of clarification. I noticed that you changed my “shame on us” to “shame on America” when you quoted my prior comment. To be clear, I’m not American, so when I said shame on us I meant shame on all of us in the West whose nations have contributed to the oppression of the Palestinian people. Granted, America has been the biggest support of the death-dealing Israeli powers, but the Canadian government (my own) has publicly voiced its support of Israel’s (literally) illegal and (morally) evil actions in Gaza. Further, Western media giants have been incredibly biased in their presentation of the issues, not only in the USA and Canada but also in the UK where, for example, the BBC refused to air a national humanitarian appeal for Palestinian victims of violence that had been created by the Disasters Emergency Committee (which represents agencies like Oxfam, Christian Aid and several others — cf. http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jan/23/bbc-refuses-gaza-appeal).
So when I said “shame on us”, I meant shame on all of us. It’s easy to point the finger at apoplectic fools like SC&A, but all of us are complicit in the actions taken by our nations.
“We accept a state in the ‘67 borders,” said Hamad. “We are not talking about the destruction of Israel.”
This was today. It’s repeating what was said in November last year, to which was added “Our conflict is not with the Jews, our problem is with the occupation”. This is from Haaretz, probably the most influential Israeli newspaper.
LOL@ ‘apoplectic fool’!
You know, in the psychology business, we call that ‘projection’. In place of substantive critique or reasonable argument, you seem to identify me with your own shortcomings.
By the way, way seems Mr Obama’s FBI regards Hamas in no great esteem.
“The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has cut off contacts with the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) amid mounting concern about the Muslim advocacy group’s roots in a Hamas-support network, the Investigative Project on Terrorism has learned.” (IPT)
Well, since that was TODAY and in English, I say it’s about time. The reference to last November is irrelevant, as evidenced by the ongoing hate in Hamas media, schools and pulpits.
The reference to Hamas not being bigoted of course, is laughable.
I and many others might be a bit skeptical of the newly found Hamas appreciation of multiculturalism and tolerance, given their track record and ongoing public displays of racism and bigotry.
Of course, as noted that is today’s news. How do you account for the last 60 years of bigotry and intransigence?
One might be excused if he believed the Israeli response to calls for genocide caused some reflection on the part of Hamas- not a bad th9ng, I’m sure you’ll
Dan,
I wondered about that – I wondered if you were referring to all of us. I agree, sort of, except that I don’t believe New Zealand has supported Israel’s action and Helen Clark has been very vocal in her criticism of America. So although I still feel guilty for being part of the west, I don’t feel quite so ashamed of New Zealand although I wish we had more clout.
I agree with Alex when he said that no fruitful dialogue can come from this conversation. We are dealing with a “hideously emboldened [Orientalist]“.
It’s interesting on he who is making an accusation of racism and bigotry is worthy of such a accusation himself
I’m sorry Steph- was it not you who maligned me first?
Further, where EXACTLY have I been racist? Simply making that assertion is hardly qualifies as an intellectual effort.
Dan- While I certainly appreciate your point of view, I do find it curious that you make no effort to critique my ideas.
Lastly, I do agree with Alex- nothing will come out this exchange. As long as there is a defense of the racism, bigotry and calls to genocide that is taught, broadcast and preached daily, there will be no peace in the region.
All in all, these exchange has been most helpful. I intend on writing a post this week based on the back and forth.
Best wished to all.
you accuse the “Palestinian people by way of Hamas” of racism, claiming they “make it clear” that “the Jews” “must be eradicated” and you frequently accuse Hamas of being intrinsically bigoted and racist. Your opinions are clearly racist and bigoted. And no, I’ve already agreed with Alex too.